Abstract: Comparative historical analysis of democratization is deployed to show that sometimes it makes sense to highlight the state as the best home for deliberative democracy, sometimes civil society, and sometimes both. Everything depends on the particular configuration of state imperatives and social movement interests, as well as the kind of inclusion that the state can offer to groups. Exclusive states sometimes prove surprisingly positive when it comes to the democratic vitality of the public sphere. Guidelines are developed for the strategic choices facing social movements.

Keywords: civil society, deliberative democracy, democratic vitality, democratization, inclusion, public sphere, social movements, states,